We have the pleasure to talk to Aisha Adams about the importance of having real and vulnerable conversations and how we should teach people how to advocate for themselves.
"What diversity, equity and inclusion are to me is the study of humanity. That study of humanity is this really beautiful commitment to just loving the process of people becoming better humans.”
In this month's The Awakened Organization podcast, Aisha Adams shares her thoughts and experience on creating conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion and helping people learn how to advocate for themselves.
Aisha is the founder of Equity Over Everything, an organization that works towards advancing equity by closing gaps in entrepreneurship and homeownership in low-resource communities.
Get in touch with Aisha Adams on her website.
To contact Peter on LinkedIn from KarmaDharma Creative Marketing Agency
To contact Jeremy on LinkedIn from DeepNet IT Consulting
If you want to be featured on the show, or you know someone who should, feel free to contact us podcast@karmadharma.ca
Narrator: Welcome to the Awakened Organization.
Peter Georgariou: Sweet, so let's start. Just a quick check in. High and a low. Peter why don't you start us off?
Jeremy Stayton: Oh my God I never start. I met two people who own – fifth generation farm owners here. So I'm up in Ottawa, Canada. All my family is down in Florida, Aisha, and just so you know so I'm up in Canada. Jeremy is as well, but his company is a B corp IT provider out in San Francisco. And we are submitting our B corp application on Thursday of this week. Which is super exciting.
But that said I’ve been a city boy most of my life, and I went to meet two people who own their family farm. And you know when you meet like really good frigging people. You're just sitting there and you feel – I was driving out of there and I was like I'm blessed. I am blessed. These are good peeps, and they're doing good stuff. And you know they're talking about their legacy of what they want to achieve with their family farm. And speaking of entrepreneurship they own like four businesses. They have this soil and turf thing they do, landscaping, eggs? They own – OK so this is just me.
They own 13,000 chickens that lay 4.3 million eggs a year. I had a massive WTF moment on my forehead. And then they want to open a microbrewery and they are just the most salt of the earth people. So this was my like, I am blessed to meet good peeps. And my low? No, I don't really have a low. I guess my second high right now is getting into a flow state. So I'm five years into the entrepreneurial journey with my agency. And I've been effing up a lot of things for most of this time. And now I'm to a point where we're doing a few things right and working with great people. So I feel blessed.
Other than this ongoing rain which a lot of people are starved for. So I won't complain about, things are pretty good.
Peter Georgariou: Aisha, how about you?
Aisha Adams: Well that was a very good high.
Jeremy Stayton: Thank you.
Aisha Adams: Good thing it was to get high. For me, my high and my low is kind of the same. So all week yesterday, all week last week was preparing to go to Birmingham. Which is Birmingham, Alabama which is where I'm originally from. I was getting an award from my college, and of course it was really exciting to me. Very sentimental moment because I didn’t participate in my undergraduate graduation, or my master's degree graduation. So it's a great time to like, get my mom and dad together like, and be with family, and celebrate.
And so it was such a high. Because it was a healthy and happy time. So I'm at the banquet and they are giving out these awards which is amazing. And they have ranked these 149 companies, picked the top 25 of those companies. And so they were like we're going to award the top three growing businesses that were under $10 million. And then we're going to rank the three businesses that were over $10 million fastest growing.
So of course they call my name for the under $10 million fastest growing. Which was a shock. It was very exciting, but I kept thinking like how do I get on that $10 million list? Like what do I have to do? What changes do I have to make?
So it's kind of like a high, but then it like really put things into perspective that I really need to crank it up a bit. I need to increase my digital products. I need to go investigate some of these $10 million businesses and figuring out like what I have left out.
So it was a celebratory time, but also like here we go. Like right, more work to do like...
Jeremy Stayton: Were you able to soak it in at least for a minute before you started questioning what you needed to do differently?
Aisha Adams: Probably like 45 seconds. I was sitting at the table like my toxic trait is I'm ready to get out of here and figure out how to make the $1 million before they even finish this conversation.
Jeremy Stayton: That's hilarious.
Peter Georgariou: Nice, yeah, for me so I'd say the high was probably Father's Day. Because I've got two younger kids. And most of my life Father's Day was not something that I celebrated as a recipient. So it was nice. It was just a nice family day, nice weather. And then got to ask for what I wanted, which is a pattern that I'm not very good at doing.
So I got to ask for what I wanted and got it. Which was some me time to go you know take care of some projects, go to the gym, do some things that felt nourishing to me.
And then Lowe's actually just this morning, Siri, so my daughter's been sick. She's almost three, and man she is so cranky when she's sick. And wants to beat up her little brother. When she hurts him, like walks over and just steps on his fingers or whatever makes him cry, I get so mad. My low is that like, and I'm not somebody that typically reacts with anger, but I like instant go rage. I like want to go defend him and like smack her. But I don't want to like hit my kids.
So it was just this like profound moment of just like fury, and then what do I do? I can't teach my kid violence to stop violence. Like that's not going to work. And it's just like these helpless feelings, so. That was my low is just struggles with yeah, having so much power, and trying to find an outlet to use it that is actually productive.
Aisha Adams: Welcome to parenting. My son is 20.
Peter Georgariou: So that's where I'm at. And it’s – parenting's hard.
Jeremy Stayton: Yeah. Totally. My girls are now 16 and 12. And clearly my cool factor has been dropping for many a year now. But just amazing watching them fight back. Yeah, it's definitely hard but I'm sure every age has got its challenges. Aisha, I’m sure at 20 years old – oh I don't know, has your son come back to you or did he ever leave?
Aisha Adams: He has not left thank goodness. I don't know. That would destroy me. COVID was a gift in that he didn't move on campus. He stayed home and he's kind of adapted to that. He kind of liked that lifestyle. So when I thought I was going to be saying goodbye when you know he went to campus.
So I've been pretty happy about that. It comes with its own challenges, but it's very rewarding when they can cook for you, and they can drive places and it's very rewarding. I love being like in the – my son will be 21 next month. I'm calling it like the No Kid Phase. So I do everything I want to do now. I just left him for four days. I'll leave him again.
Jeremy Stayton: I heard that you might be able to tell us a bit about equity?
Aisha Adams: A little bit. I'm sure we can definitely talk about equity, and diversity, and inclusion for sure.
Peter Georgariou: A great place to start. I'd also love to hear a bit about the entrepreneurial side of you and the B corp side, and the intersection of all of these things. Because obviously sustainability, or whatever umbrella you want to put on it goes beyond equity, diversity, and inclusion. And that is just one of the cornerstones of, but love to hear kind of from you about all of it.
So we can start there. Seems like a good place to start.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, so when I talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion of course like I have this business. Get these awards, and so my family is like so where's the cheque? Like when are you going to have money, right? Like that's pretty much the bottom line of all of this is like OK. So I always tell people whenever I'm like made it, made it. When I come on like shows like this you will know that I've made it. Because I'm going to have like one of those fancy fish tanks in the back.
Like you know the fish tanks that I'm talking about? The ones with all the exotic fish in there, swimming together. And it's beautiful because you didn't pay for it. I mean you didn’t do it. You just paid someone else to do it, and it looks good. And like you don't have to advocate for the fish, because there's a fish advocate that makes sure that everything is going the way that it should.
And so for me when I talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion I started thinking about the ecosystems that people are managing. And it just reminds me of a fish tank. So let's just say for example you were building an ecosystem and you were like yep. So I'm building this company, or I'm building this department or whatever. However you look at it. And I'm building it for goldfish.
And so we know that goldfish like their water cold and dirty. We know that right? Like from growing up, going to the fair, and the carnivals and like all the nasty children with their nasty hands on the ball, throwing them into – the fish would like survive right?
Like goldfish like their water cold. They like it a little dirty right? So that's how you're going to build your tank. And then they have little fins right? So those little fins are going to be you know, when you setup the furniture you're setting it up so that their little fins can get through the furniture.
And so you have like a type of goldfish. And then here comes Peter saying well, we need some diversity. So you're like OK yeah I need some diversity. So diversity is just throwing another fish into the fish tank. And I always like to use Beta fish for example right? You know a lot of people think that that Beta fish would kill that goldfish, but the truth is the beta fish does not like dirty water. And it would not settle in well at all. They like their water pristine right?
And you know the goldfish, they eat flakes, and the Japanese Fighting Fish eats pellets. They're like an extra 24 cents at the Walmart, like the food costs different right?
So you start thinking about like how does this fish, like if I'm in – and they have big fins. They can't get through where the furniture is. But you would have diversity right? Because diversity just means different. But when you start to think about inclusion, you start to think about things like how can I put both types of food in? Where does the water temperature need to be? Should I have a divider? Maybe an algae eater, like a different subject matter expert could fill this team up a little bit better. And so what you're trying to do is balance this delicate ecosystem.
And if you've ever had one of these fish tanks, or seen one of these fish tanks. If a fish dies in the fish tank, usually the advocate for the fish, the guy who’s coming out is like telling you this is the problem. We need to switch this thing. We need to do this thing.
So for me those strategies that keep the fish in the tank together, swimming beautifully, those are your inclusion strategies. Now I think about them like this, if you've taken a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion class you probably heard the saying "Diversity is being asked to the party, and inclusion is being asked to dance." But I like to take that step a little step further because I'm a big Kanye West fan. "Don't want to come to your party if I cannot have a say in the music." Need a little bit of Beyoncé, little bit of Kanye West. And I definitely want to have a say in the food right? Because I'm on keto and I've got to keep it you know tight right? And then that final piece is if you're charging money then I want a percentage of the tickets too because I'm fabulous. People are coming there because I'm there too.
So to start thinking about diversity, equity and inclusion we think about having full access to everything. And we think about that tank and how the tank is good for everybody. The water is good for everybody. So when I'm talking about diversity, equity and inclusion that's what I'm talking about. Equity is that state when you have that beautiful fish tank with all the fish swimming beautifully.
Peter Georgariou: Boom.
Jeremy Stayton: I like it.
Peter Georgariou: I have a question for you as we did a little homework on you, and you talk about this topic a little bit all over the place. Rumour has it, or not so much a rumour. And I was enjoying your YouTube video "What I Want my White Friends to Know. But I have a question as two privileged, middle-aged, White guys trying to be better allies. What's the most annoying question you get? Or the most ignorant question where you role your eyes, but you say something nice to them?
Aisha Adams: Oh I don't think I get any ignorant questions.
Peter Georgariou: Oh, nice.
Aisha Adams: I think you know like, I'm a school teacher by trade. So before I entered this world I was a school teacher. So you know school teachers love good questions. And so what I found is that I’m usually not annoyed with people. Because I'm harder on like processes, and systems. So I try to focus on being hard on a process, and systems, and easy on the people.
So usually people don't get on my nerves too much more than like standard get on my nerves right? And I have all of those things I do at home to sort of keep me balanced. Because I'm an extreme introvert. So I do all these things at home to like, make me ready for that. The challenge of dealing with people, but really what the diversity, equity and inclusion is, to me it's the study of humanity right?
It's the study of like being a student of humanity. And so for me there's just no dumb questions. Or even really frustrating questions. Because we're all unpacking the complexity of what is.
Peter Georgariou: OK, I love that point. I'll ask it to you slightly differently then. What do you think is the right question to ask to get us towards a better fish tank? What are the questions we should be asking ourselves?
Aisha Adams: Every day, I don't think we should be asking ourselves the question if we're doing the work. We should be asking others right?
So if I'm the fish advocate, and I'm coming in. I'm surveying the fish. Like hey dude, are you all right? What do you need to survive? How are you going to like – oh I notice that your fin is wrinkled. What do I need to make it spread right? So this idea that leaders have the answer is completely egotistical to me. And like really thinking about all the leaders that I've been under that were great to me. Let me do my thing, and they supplied me with the resources and tools to do what I do well.
And so for me it's not what questions should we be asking, but how much should we be listening? How are the different ways we can listen? What are the different questions we can be asking? What are the different ways we can be receiving messages right? Because like you said this morning, you woke up your daughter was cranky. Well she was communicating something to you that she didn't have words for. And unfortunately in our marriages, in our work teams there are things we don't have words for, so we get cranky right? So that student of humanities, like this really beautiful commitment such as loving the process of people becoming better humans.
Jeremy Stayton: That's refreshing.
Peter Georgariou: That is refreshing.
Jeremy Stayton: So Aisha, question on this because this is fascinating to me. Because that's basically upping the ante to let's all be adults in the room and you know, be forgiving of humanness, the ability to learn, and to fuck up, and to ask for forgiveness. Which I feel like is kind of missing in a lot of conversations right now.
So how to foster the ability for the comfort for trial and error amidst you know trying to create an inclusive environment. If the whole world is this like, such as you know kind of nerfed version of we've got to be so careful, and safe that we don't want to take any risk. Well then how do people risk becoming more inclusive, and taking chances with things when it's not the default is that makes sense?
Aisha Adams: Yeah, I look at you know I wrote an e-book called the Courage Principle. And I really look at leadership from this perspective of courageousness right? So if you don't have a threat there's no reason to be courageous right? And so this idea, like cancel culture isn't real. You get to make a mistake. You get called out right? You might get dragged on Twitter, but the reality is you can redeem yourself.
So we know that this happens all the time. Because we love a good redemption story. Especially here in America. [Unintelligible [00:17:05] for me I think it’s just about being courageous, and then creating community, and finding a space. We talk a lot about this new workforce, this new workspace right? So like I'm – in the places where I work and I have influence I'm really talking about the irresistible job offer.
No one's ever, like talked about a job like that. But I'm like, this is not irresistible. Like this is so resistible. Like I will resist the fuck out of this one right here, right? So creating job descriptions that are irresistible to people, and that bring people in to not just a place like to get their paycheque, but a place to grow.
And I think as we start reshaping our work environments into work communities, and really like taking ownership of the whole person as a part so like what we do? I think it becomes easier for people to mess up. Because you have it through like this lens of a continuation right?
My mom, and my dad worked like jobs. Like my mom has been at her job since before the doors opened, and my dad was a career marine. So I've kind of like watched people like stay. And I couldn't do it. Like I would go crazy right? Like if I was the same job for three years, like they've got to take me out. Like take me out, drag me away from here.
But we come from a culture where people worked right? They worked their jobs. They worked one job, or two jobs their entire life. Now people have four or five career changes. And we do things just so much differently. So for me I think just providing that space where people aren't just there to get a cheque, but to grow, and to become industry leaders. And like to become thought partners in the industry, to become a part of the conversation. And I don't think we've don't a good job of that. Especially like the lower down the totem pole an employee is. Where they're most acceptable to being like cult followings of an industry. Or they have the potential to actually, one day become influencers? We tend to leave them out of the conversation.
Jeremy Stayton: No shit. I love the message. How to effect that change? Let me know how I can help. We've done some of this, so financial literacy training for all employees. Employee ownership coming after that, so that they actually know what they're getting into, and how to read in creating you know real equity for all within the organisation. But there was no handbook for us on this. This was very much like well there's a few companies I've heard of that have done this. But it is not the business as usual message, and I'm curious how do you get this popularised, how do you get this out there?
I'm 1 million percent inboard with what you're saying. And I love it. And how do we magnify that? And I agree the current workforce, they're fed up with the old status quo bullshit, corporate career path. That is not in the cards.
So you know, maybe it's a survival of the fittest of the companies that do embrace this change. But I'm curious just if you have any thoughts on how to – how do we make this happen? I want to live in the future you're describing. How do we get there?
Aisha Adams: I know, I need a $1 million book deal.
Jeremy Stayton: $10 million right? Once Aisha gets to $10 million we're set.
Aisha Adams: I'm going to play a $1 million book deal, great podcasts like this. Conversations, holding our colleagues accountable. You know, I do this thing sometimes when I go into a room. And I might say like, how many of you serve on a Board? Like this happened, OK. So Juneteenth when I launched my company, my mentor was like "Oh, you gotta do Juneteenth." He's like "This is going to be so great for you."
So I named my little new company my husband and my son, right? Because that's all that works for me. We put on a Juneteenth for like the entire City of Nashville in partnership with the Martin Luther King Junior Association.
And we get there. It's my first event, my company's launching and my friend does not show up, and the person he was going to have on the panel did not show up. So I end up having to get on the panel.
So I'm sitting on the panel, resting my feet mind you. Because you never get to sit down when it's your event, but I get to rest my feet. And I look out and I'm thinking like I planned this June 10th for like little Black girls with afros. But I look out and it's everybody right? Like just a Hodge podge of people here to support Juneteenth, they're amazing you know? And I was like really stunned. Like wow, like they're here to celebrate the ending of slavery. They're here to celebrate you know, my freedom.
And I felt good about that. And I was like maybe they're not racist. This is just me, I'm thinking like maybe they're not racist. I have more questions. This is my event, so I go "Son, hand me that microphone." Like a mom like in the middle of the event.
And I say like, "This is the question I have for you. Stand up if you serve on a Board, or donate to a Board?" And I would say about 80% of the room stood up. I said "OK, OK, OK sit back down." I said "Stand up if you before you donate to an organisation, or sign a budget for a Board you ensure, or ask the question..." No, I said "First of all do you8 believe that everybody deserves commensurate pay no matter of gender, age?" And everybody was like yeah, yeah, yeah the whole room stood up. 100% of people stood up.
So 80% of people said that they give money to organisations or serve on boards. 100% of people said that they believed that all people should be paid equally, commensurate like with salary and all that stuff. Organised, and then I said "Stand up if you actually ask the question before you sign off and vote, or give money to an organisation." Four people stood up. And that was it. Like oh, I’m not courageous enough to say are women getting paid equally here? Or I'm not courageous enough to say can we do a pay gap analysis right?
Like I have the power to say it. I have the fiduciary responsibility. It is within my right to say it, but most people aren't even trained on how to exercise their rights, and like how to show up in a room and be an advocate for equity right? And then this is dangerous work. Like my grandmother had dogs turned on her. She had hoses turned on her.
So for me you know I'm just looking at it from that lens of like it's dangerous. I want people to feel secure. They need training. We want to give a lot there you know? And so you know we need books, we need literature. We just need so much so that people can get ready.
Jeremy Stayton: Do you think Aisha on that that the rest of that room other than those four people, that they didn't have the courage to ask those questions? Or it's just ignorance, or don't care, or both?
Aisha Adams: I think courage is a big part of it. And when we talk about ignorance it's like not knowing better right? Like I can be ignorant to a lot of things right? So yeah of course because I've served on boards. I'm sure you all have served on boards. A lot of time you just don't know what you can ask. And I’m going to tell you, nobody wants to be the person in the meeting that holds the meeting for 15 more minutes right?
We have a culture of that right? You can be the annoying person for asking too many questions, or asking the question at the wrong time. It's 4:49, she was just about to let us out of here. Even though the meeting isn't scheduled to be over until 5:00 people will do all kind of grunting because you asked a question. It's not safe out there all the time.
Jeremy Stayton: That's true, that's true. Building on that word, what's your key ton building that safety right? So because what you're talking about is, and this is back to Jeremy's point I think as we're both navigating this journey ourselves, for ourselves, and for our families and our teams. How do you create the safety to stay curious and ask the tough questions? Or get into the nitty gritty that might piss somebody off on that board?
Aisha Adams: Right, so I don't believe in being safe. Right? Like everybody's like build a safe space. I'm like as a Black woman I've never been safe y'all. Like ooh, how? Like tell me about this space. So I don't believe in that, but I do believe in brave spaces. I believe in spaces where people can have growing edges, difficult conversations. And that the consequences of those conversations don't have to be punitive right?
And so it is really the continued practice of that, and laying that out.
Jeremy Stayton: Amen.
Aisha Adams: So just creating those spaces, and leaning in, and training people. And making sure that they understand that space I think is critical.
Jeremy Stayton: So talk to me, I took that down and it's definitely going in the show notes, braves spaces versus safe spaces. Talk to me about creating a brave space.
Aisha Adams: I think we were all interested in being in a safe space because it feels good right? It sounds good, but honestly are you ever really safe? Like no, you know? And the reality is that you have to have the courage to mess up. You have to have the space. Like there have got to be people that you can close that door with and have a real conversation. Where those words are coming out of your mouth are just questions, and now doom right?
Like you've got to be able to wrack yourself. You can't check yourself if you don't wreck yourself you know what I mean? Because you've got to know what a wreck looks like and what it doesn't look like.
Peter Georgariou: 100% you've got to cross the line to know where the line is.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, a lot of times, especially like depending on who you are right? Some people are like I can see other people crossing the line and I'm not going to do it. And then there are people like my son. Like he is going to test the line. He going to test that line until he can't test it anymore right?
Jeremy Stayton: Also yeah people have different edges right? Like the comfort that you and I, Aisha, might have in a conversation might be uncomfortable for others. And that's OK you know, that's how people stretch the limits of their comfort. I love that you're taking this tack. I mean literally people and I are having the conversation before you got on. About I said I reserve the right to offend, and then apologise, and learn. Because how else am I going to learn? And how am I going to even engage in meaningful conversation if I don't take the risk of offending somebody? Not with the intention to offend somebody, but that may be the unintended impact is that somebody got offended. And that should be OK.
Aisha Adams: Yes. I'm a school teacher. For a long time. I taught high school, and I taught fifth grade, middle school. Middle school mostly, and high school the most. But the thing about it was the kids would always argue, and fuss, and fight. And I never thought about teaching them how to do that like safely or correctly. And there's no curriculum you know, back then it's like teach kids how to engage in advocacy for themselves. And teach kids you know what I mean?
So kids are going to school and they're being taught how to please the teacher. How to please the grading system. But there is no training for you know, how to be in conflict. And a really great example of this because I'm so lucky that I get to go in the schools all the time, is the teachers are like why is she negotiating her grade with me? Why is she?
And I'm like listen. If she does not get practice negotiating these grades she will not negotiate her pay. When you teach your daughter not to negotiate her bed time you're teaching her that negotiation is disrespectful, and most women don't negotiate their pay because they don't want to be disrespectful. It's not that they don't know that they deserve more.
And so we really want to look at these patterns of like how we look at how we're training up people. And that is even in our companies, you know? One of the biggest trainings that I was recommending during COVID for employers was a simple email training. And you would think like what? But I'm like how long do I have to respond to this email before I'm rogue in this new COVID environment?
Like how long? Or how long should I wait for you to respond back? What's the policy right? So just creating that just an email policy. Because everything went from in person to email. And people weren't sure. So people were up all night like answering emails because they didn't want tit to seem like they weren't working. Because they wouldn't have the structure in place for people to really understand how to show up. If you've never shown up via a computer before right?
Or I talk to people all the time. And they're frustrated because they, as they're working on like self-assessment. They want their employees to self-assess, and they're like I don't understand why people can't self-asses. And I'm like because in school you do not self-asses. The teacher assesses. Now they're looking for your approval because they've been getting approved for the last 12 years. Not when you're 13, you want them to come in and approve themselves. They don't know how.
So just those little basic trainings. It's like how do I you know, self-assess? What is this? And we think it's about race, and a lot of times it is about race. A lot of times it's about age. A lot of times it's about gender.
Sometimes it could be like where am I from regionally? I know when we moved to Birmingham, and my son had been in DC and the teacher told him to get his tablet. And he was like I don't have a tablet. I don't have a tablet. He knew what a notebook was, did not know what a tablet was. Had never heard the word before right?
So it's just different people require different things. I think it's great that you're offering like these amazing benefits. I go into companies where people don't even really understand their insurance benefit you know? We're like just tell us all in plain language what we get in the package.
Peter Georgariou: That is not plain language that's for sure.
Jeremy Stayton: Yeah, we had to do a company debrief with people explaining benefits. Because what the benefit company provides is not an explanation of what's good for the employee, and what are the things they should be looking out for? It's crazy. I love that you're into the education side of this, and see it from the other bit.
Two burning questions from me. One, how do you teach healthy conflict resolution? Or being in conflict and getting through it? Because I feel like everybody should have learned this in second grade, and nobody has learned it yet at all.
Peter Georgariou: Absolutely.
Jeremy Stayton: And I'm actively coaching 30 and 40 year olds how to tell somebody that you know that they have conflict with that hey, there was an impact on me. Here's what it was. Can we resolve this? So that's one, and then my other line of inquiry is around diversity, but let's start with this conflict? Because that's just pervasive. Such a different type of pandemic. Of people not being able to engage in healthy conflict and come out of it unscathed. How do you teach this?
Aisha Adams: So to me, I like to think about high performing teams. So when a high performing team is going to have conflict, so you just need to teach good resolution strategies right? So like when I got married I would be willing to tell my husband like the 12 things he did that annoyed me.
Like here's like one through 12 bro, like you got this list. Good day to you. I'll see you when you can resolve some of this. Well I had to learn in conflict you can't give anybody more than three bullet points. Or they shut down, and they're like listen, if you don't like all of that about me you don't even like who I am. Just go on about your business.
So I learned that you know, you can't do that. I learned in graduate school that people really do need you to pump them up before a criticism. It should be like a sandwich right? I really love the way that [unintelligible [00:33:48] blah, blah, blah.
Jeremy Stayton: The shit sandwich.
Aisha Adams: This is what I need you to work on, and here is that bottom bread. This is why you're so valuable. I think we spend so much time telling people to humble themselves, instead of telling people how important they are. And I think that's a big piece of why the workforce is the way that it is. Because everybody says like humble yourself. Which means have a low self-importance.
Well babe if you don't need me, and this pay not giving I can just walk out the door. But if you let me know like hey, I'm valuable. And what I'm doing matters. And is it of the utmost importance that I fill up the ice machine every day. Because people need their ice. I love ice. I need ice you know? And that's an important role. Nothing is more important than a clean bathroom. If you're out on the road and you get a clean bathroom, we don't prop up on social media that the bathrooms are clean, but we love a clean bathroom right?
So I really think it's about us really getting back to really making people feel like the importance of what they do. No matter the role. Because they showed us you cannot get a hamburger for lunch. Keep playing with us right? So be grateful for those people. Lift them up. Make them feel special, because they are.
Peter Georgariou: Just before we go to your diversity piece, Jeremy, I wanted to come back to – and this might be part of your $1 million book deal here Aisha. But it feels like the line of thought, or your angle on DEI and having tough conversations versus walking on eggshells and avoiding conflict at all costs. It feels very refreshing, and maybe you know for the brief amount of reading that Jeremy and I have done, we're getting spoon-fed that it's more this cancel culture approach to DEI versus conversation. You figure, is this novel when you're out there? Do you get in debates on panels about your view on these things? Or would you say this is a common angle on DEI?
Aisha Adams: I definitely feel like you know, I enter into the DEI space. Because there are some problems that I feel like I can solve. One is that my approach is practical. So I don't talk a lot about like, the historical context to why we need DEI unless it's needed. Like I focus on DEI as a strategy for you know, I focus on strategies for equity in the present right? And I'm going to tell you what I get a lot. I get a lot of Black people crying when I walk out of a room because they feel seen and heard at all-White companies.
I get White executives hugging me and crying afterwards. Because they feel a sense of relief and a sense that they can do their work right?
So from my I know what I have to say is different, but I know it's the right thing to do. And so I don't get a lot of slack either. Because I try to charge people enough to that they feel like OK, I don't want to not listen right? So once people start listening, and they're like oh, OK you know one of the things I try to teach people is diversity, equity and inclusion is not for Black people, or White people, or vintage people, or young people. It is really for everybody, and it's about creating that environment that is good for everybody.
And I find that people buy into that a lot better. Because we're all at work right? And we all want to make it home to our kids, and our families, our dogs, and all the other things that we like look forward to making it home for.
Peter Georgariou: Fish tank.
Aisha Adams: And so that's really our shared mission. And so with good group norms we're able to achieve that.
Peter Georgariou: Love it, so I've got a conundrum, and a practical DEI strategy is exactly what is called for. So maybe you can help. So I run an IT company. IT is not the most diverse industry. Particularly from a gender perspective, 90% you know white guys kind of a thing. Is it fair for us to horde all of the women in IT into our company to try to get to some equitable position where we've got somewhat equal representation gender, age, ethnicity, other ability and otherwise? Or is it responsible to match what the boarder market is and focus more on getting folks into the market in general from other groups to create more diversity within the market in general? As opposed to hording the resources, the people that are out there and trying to add them to our team?
Aisha Adams: So I feel like the thing that I have to tell people is we have all historical Black universities and colleges that are turning out like college classes full of people who are educated in computer and IT. They're not being recruited. So you know what I'm saying? There's not a shortage of Black people in tech. There's a shortage of Black people being invited into tech. the degrees are there... A lot of times the experiences are there. The opportunity is not always there.
Now I've been looking up these tech contracts. And I've been looking up what y'all are doing in tech and I promise you, nobody invited me to the party. I promise right? Like nobody said Aisha, you can go into tech. You know what I mean? Like nobody invited me.
So to me I think that the idea that there's a shortage is not the case. I think there is this idea though that if you are a Black woman and you might make it to this company. Or you're a brown woman and you make it to this company, you have more visibility. But I believe that there is no shortage, and I believe that we have to make more pipelines to these industries. So I think great companies do both right? Who are good talent, create irresistible offers that keep people on boards. And if you can pay them and treat them well, and help them grow in the industry, and you're a great home for them then do that work.
And then be a part of a greater movement to invite more people into the space. Because in terms of what we know about diversity, your company is going to earn more with a woman in the C-suite. So you need to have that diversity, and you need to lock that in for yourself. And then allow that person to be a thought leader that is talking to the other companies about the value that they're able to bring to the company.
So I think it's a both, and.
Jeremy Stayton: All right.
Peter Georgariou: Fix the system Jeremy dude, come on.
Respondent 2: I mean that is the hope right? Is to have more – so we've focused on creating an inclusive and equitable environment with you know dropping the barriers to entrance. But the reality is we get 10 to one applicants, White men. Just because the number of people looking for a job in our particular industry are predominantly White men.
Aisha Adams: But if you had a program that was like hey, we have a technical – like first of all on the internet right now Black girls in tech, we have like these hashtags. Like they're out there trust me.
Jeremy Stayton: Oh I know. We actually have – we employ a number of them, and it's all by accident. You know, it wasn't an intentional – creating that inclusive and equitable environment has afforded us the ability to have a pretty diverse workforce, but I'm wondering if it's responsible to feel like I'm hording you know, and keeping other tech companies from being able to have their share of diverse workforce in our same industry.
Aisha Adams: I just feel like they have to do the work. If you've done the work, they can do the work. You know, we all are looking for jobs. I mean the money has to be made, the jobs have to be taken, work has to be done. But every semester these universities are turning out fine, gender X you know genderless, genderful people who are wonderful at this work, and who can do this work. So I just think it's really about setting up good pathways.
You know if you go to Harvard, or if you go to Princeton your path is set for you. Like you have good contacts, and you can do – but if you go to like, the state college over here and get a computer science degree it's like we have no women in tech. It's like I'm right here!
Jeremy Stayton: We actually dropped the educational requirement entirely. As a way to open up again, create a more inclusive environment for folks from all levels of means.
Aisha Adams: That's wild. That’s amazing. And how's that working out for you?
Jeremy Stayton: Fantastic. I would say the number of people that have come to us from you know low income backgrounds is – it feels great. And all walks of life have come from...
Aisha Adams: [unintelligible [00:43:11] your colleagues that you have all the people?
Jeremy Stayton: What's that?
Aisha Adams: Do your colleagues accuse you of having all the people?
Jeremy Stayton: No, no you industry peers and whatnot? No not at all. I mean we're still small. I'm just wondering you know, the yeah. I'm just wondering you know is it responsible to you know for a big company to horde talent under this guise of diversity that is you know where essentially they're cheery picking everyone that pops up, but –
Peter Georgariou: I feel you're setting an example dude.
Jeremy Stayton: – like if you're doing the work, and they want to come to you, how about it? I like that. I like that. That works for me.
Aisha Adams: And just think about like, this idea like I know it feels like we are in little demand, but like not a lot of us, but there is enough of us. There is enough people of colour to come along. There's enough for everybody. And if there's not enough, we'll take two jobs thank you.
Jeremy Stayton: That's hilarious.
Peter Georgariou: I feel really opposite to you Jeremy, we're like 80% female staff at our place. And boy I think we're [unintelligible [00:44:26] for it.
Jeremy Stayton: That's not very diverse.
Peter Georgariou: That's funny, that's funny well we have Brian and I, but he keeps asking us do we actually interview guys? And I'm like we do dude. They're just so far they have yet to be the best candidate for the job. Like bar none it's just been a – anyways, this is like, we're on the other side of that spectrum, but yeah. I don't know. This would have been very fortunate on that point?
Yeah, we've been lucky. So we've got probably a few more minutes. Are you still good on time Aisha?
Aisha Adams: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Stayton: We'll probably wrap up with Anne Katherine at 5:55 at the latest. So if you're OK to – I just noticed we've been chatting this whole time and you're going to laugh. We haven't gotten past question two on our scripted questions for you.
Peter Georgariou: Fuck scripted questions, I love this conversation.
Jeremy Stayton: Yeah, it's so good. And I think it's actually – we found you because we're doing a lot interviews with B corps and our goal with this, well beyond just talking to awesome people like yourself. And so it's like a selfish endeavour, but sharing the word. Talking to a lot of people doing business different, and we found you as a resource on you know BIPOC Leaders for the B Corp Space. How did you end up connected there?
Aisha Adams: Luck. I get to be in some of the coolest places, and sometimes you know friends in high places that can drop your name when you're not there. But I have been really interested in just the setup of B corp, how it runs and was really looking at the assessment in the DEI space, and looking at the scores and was thinking like you know what? We have to offer more support in the DEI space for people who are trying to get their certificate.
And so it just became a passion of mine. Particularly because I really believe in what it means to be a B corp. And so just happened, you know manifestation, lit a few candles, a little Black Girl Magic, and boom.
Peter Georgariou: And we got to find you, so a little magic for us as well. Talk to us, what made this your life's calling? Was there a series of events? Or you just woke up and say I need to level the playing field for the world? What led you to this work?
Aisha Adams: I really hate to disappoint you, but my life's calling is to be rich and fabulous.
Peter Georgariou: Boom!
Aisha Adams: You know what I'm saying? Like these hands were made for like counting money, and being at the spa. Like I don't know all these things about you know, toiling forever, but for me as a Black woman this is a necessity right? Like as an entrepreneur you know the numbers. Y'all talking about just tech, but that's in every industry right?
So the reality is I had to learn to speak up for myself very early. And I like to speak up for others. And so it just became a thing. And when I realised people would pay me to tell them what I really want to tell them anyway? It was like oh, this is [unintelligible [00:47:41] great! Because I love to tell an employer like I don't want to work this job. Like we really need to look at this job application, this job description because no. It's giving not a fun job, right? Not a good job. So I love being able to talk to people, share my truth with them, engage them in what makes you know their worlds go round, and you know, just being human. And having experiences with other humans. So yeah.
Peter Georgariou: And rock the Gucci belt along the way.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, I don't have a Gucci belt, but I've got some Gucci though. I like Gucci shoes.
Peter Georgariou: All right, so rocking the bling while changing the world. This is awesome.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, yes.
Peter Georgariou: So you got a lot of shit going on Aisha. like you're juggling a lot of balls in that life. Not to mention your $1 million book deal. Talk to us a bit about equity over everything. You know, beyond just your media company.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, so Equity Over Everything is my consulting firm. Where I get to work with amazing leaders who are you know really trying to cultivate spaces of diversity, equity and inclusion. And so like I offer trainings, and audits. Particularly more so audits. Yeah, and it's great.
I've been doing it now for a while. It wasn't something that I was like, like I said. I didn't just like wake up one day and way like I'm going to do a consulting firm. I actually have a mentor who is very successful and semi-retired in DEI. And he was like you would be great at this, and I was like listen. Everybody who is Black is in DEI. I want to do something different. I want to do something you know, no one else is doing.
And he's like if you talk about what we talk about this is no one else is doing this. So I really had to be convinced to share my work in that way. And then I had just for fun written an institute, a 123-course institute that is a corporate training for DEI. And I had shown it to my mentor, and he was like you've got to share this with Mike, which is another colleague of ours.
So I was like OK. So I call Mike up and I'm like Dr. Fox said I should share this with you. You know, can we setup a meeting? And I was pretty sure he setup the meeting because we worked together before and he like, felt like obligated to setup the meeting.
So I go in and he's looking tired I'm looking like I have to you know, I'm just sharing this with you or whatever. In the middle of our conversation his entire demeanor changed and he was like this is my life's work right? Like this is what I believe in. And so we partnered to open up the Lenoir-Rhyne Equity and Diversity Institute. Which is an 11-coursee institute for corporate training for diversity, equity and inclusion. Which is another thing I do through Equity Over Everything.
So it's just been an interesting ride to say the least. So we launched that in 2020. I pitched it before George Floyd. It was accepted before the George Floyd situation, but that became like a catalyst for the need in corporate.
So as entrepreneurs y'all know all about timing. It was like the right time for the courses to launch. And so that has been amazing, and I'm so proud of Lenoir-Rhyne Equity and Diversity Institute.
Peter Georgariou: Yeah, it's so cool. I checked it our earlier and went through it.
Jeremy Stayton: Congrats for you on the courage of creating all these things. There's so many haters commenting, and criticising things, but you're just out crafting that path. Which is speaking of courage is awesome.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, I think of you know, we do, we have a lot of negativity out there. But y'all it is so much more positivity. It is so much more. I've been doing this thing where – I have a Peloton. That's my addiction. Any Peloton owners on the call?
Jeremy Stayton: Yeah...
Peter Georgariou: For real?
Jeremy Stayton: I was in a meeting earlier and two of the team members were going off about Peloton and the Power Series or something that they loved.
Aisha Adams: The power Zone uh-huh.
Peter Georgariou: I feel I'm excluded. I don't feel like I'm part of the club.
Aisha Adams: Yes, definitely join Peloton. IT's life. So it is the philosophy of my life. Peloton is everything to me. I'm so grateful that I jumped on Pelew ton. And I feel like the – I forgot the question because I was Peloton fangirling so hard. What was the question again?
Peter Georgariou: That I was excited for your Peloton story and I totally lost track.
Aisha Adams: Yeah, well Peloton, it's positive, that's what it is. I tell my mom it's like when I decided to get – so I have the Tread. I don't have the bike yet. I'm getting the bike in a couple weeks. I actually have a treadmill. So I told my mom, I was like I'm going to get into this.
So I bought the tread, and then I started buying the clothes. And my husband was like nobody is going to see you in those clothes. And I was like I am. I'm going to see me in these clothes. I want them to match this thing. And I got really, really into it. Well in six months now I've lost 34 pounds. Like all my [unintelligible [00:53:29]
Peter Georgariou: Woo!
Aisha Adams: You know what I mean? Like...
Jeremy Stayton: Awesome.
Aisha Adams: And I wake up every day and those coaches are telling me like the most positive things. And it's just like for me so good. So once I started waking up and listening to Peloton every day I wanted to share that. So I literally take about 15 minutes in the morning, and I go down my like Facebook feed and I try to like, compliment 10 people.
And it's just I've started getting like emails, and phone calls, and handwritten cards. Because people are like oh my gosh, like you are so positive. And Y'all, this just like takes me 10 minutes. 10 minutes to spread love.
Jeremy Stayton: I love it. That was the question Peter was about staying positive amidst all the haters. Bringing people together, I love that you're bringing people together rather than yeah. And I would agree. I think Aisha that you know what you said resonated with me. About you know there's a lot of hate and pessimism out there, but it's all about the like, big they's. You know like us and them.
Like they're doing this, and they, but like individuals and people that I'm talking to? Positivity man.
Peter Georgariou: 100%.
Jeremy Stayton: People are people, and come together and they want to understand, and they want to you know. The others are just assholes. The assholes have too much voice on social media, but the world isn't full. It's not all assholes.
Aisha Adams: Definitely not. But if you Peloton you'll be too tired to care when you're done. Like you hate me? Good for you. I'm tired.
Jeremy Stayton: That's great.
Peter Georgariou: That is funny. Aisha, Jeremy did you have a last question because I have one last one.
Jeremy Stayton: No, no, no I'm good.
Peter Georgariou: Aisha, do you have any exciting projects you're working on? Or anything you'd like to tell the listeners to check out? Or stuff you've got on the go that you're super psyched about? Besides Peloton?
Aisha Adams: Yeah, I mean I'm always doing a lot. But you can always just you know find me on LinkedIn where I'm sharing all of those things, and engaging with community. And happy to listen, and learn, and always willing to work. So yep, you can find me at EquityOverEverything.org, or as Aisha Johnson -Adams on Linked-In.
Jeremy Stayton: And what's your favourite publisher? You're looking for a $1 million book deal is that on the table?
Aisha Adams: Yes, I'm definitely looking for a $1 million book deal for sure.
Peter Georgariou: Need some shoes! New shoes.
Aisha Adams: I don't need new shoes. I need a new cheque. Like a whole new – I want to get on that list guys! Like how do you get on that list?
Peter Georgariou: Yeah, that’s interesting. I think you spread more positivity and you find people who want to share your message. And you get your little Aisha ambassadors running a little bit all over the place. That's the way to rumble.
Aisha Adams: Yeah.
Peter Georgariou: Before we go did you have any questions for us?
Aisha Adams: Well I just want to say like this has been such a great conversation. Thanks for having me here. And I just look, I hope I get to hear from you all again, and I get to come back one day, so.
Peter Georgariou: Aisha, you absolutely get to come back whenever you want. Be it that is a standing offer for sure. Jeremy and I are just getting going on our podcast journey, but like you, we've decided we'd like to change the world while we're here in this short journey of this lifetime. So I will definitely follow you and reach out.
If there's any way we can support you and your umpteen business ventures, or buy the book when it's out? We are here to support you in any way possible.
Aisha Adams: Well I just appreciate it, and I appreciate you all. Because you know, just these conversations are so rich and powerful, and you don't feel the impact for two weeks, but then three weeks later you hear something and you're like oh yeah! We talked about that!
And that growth is just so important. So just thank you for spending time with me and sharing with me.
Jeremy Stayton: Yeah.
Peter Georgariou: That's awesome.
Jeremy Stayton: Awesome, thanks for letting us join your fish tank for the last hour.
Aisha Adams: Yeah.
Peter Georgariou: Yeah, love it.